Discussion:
[Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung
'Brynjar Haarberg' brynjar.haarberg@haugnett.no [Speed_skating]
2017-02-11 08:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Ready for a new world record on the 10 000 m?

It could happen in Gangneung today.

But will the record be official? From what I hear, there is wind blowing from behind on both straigths, giving the skaters an advantage compared to other rinks. Is this OK, or are there rules against such installations?

http://nos.nl/artikel/2157302-kramer-fantastische-tijd-maar-ik-had-wel-meewind.html

B. Haarberg.
'jim' zjimwhite@sbcglobal.net [Speed_skating]
2017-02-11 12:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Gangneung is not the only such track. Pettit is similar, and probably several or more others (I do not know the wind speed at any). Pettit’s speed advantage has been long debated, apparently with no permanent resolution. Apparently the final decision is subjective, by the ISU Technical Representative, although the track owners can/do say “our facility is what is, use it or go elsewhere”. I see nothing in the rules regarding such conditions for records, apparently if a venue is good enough for a major meet, it is good enough for records. (Sorry, I cannot read the article because I cannot read Dutch.)

Jim White



From: ***@yahoogroups.com [mailto:***@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 2:07 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung





Ready for a new world record on the 10 000 m?

It could happen in Gangneung today.

But will the record be official? From what I hear, there is wind blowing from behind on both straigths, giving the skaters an advantage compared to other rinks. Is this OK, or are there rules against such installations?

http://nos.nl/artikel/2157302-kramer-fantastische-tijd-maar-ik-had-wel-meewind.html

B. Haarberg.
'Carool van Kesteren' caroolvk@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
2017-02-11 12:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Bryan, the wind force has been measured by specialists and it does not deviate from the wind that you find in Berlin or Thialf or comparable rinks.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Carool van Kesteren

From: mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 9:07 AM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung


Ready for a new world record on the 10 000 m?

It could happen in Gangneung today.

But will the record be official? From what I hear, there is wind blowing from behind on both straigths, giving the skaters an advantage compared to other rinks. Is this OK, or are there rules against such installations?

http://nos.nl/artikel/2157302-kramer-fantastische-tijd-maar-ik-had-wel-meewind.html

B. Haarberg.
Lars Finsen lars.finsen@ortygia.no [Speed_skating]
2017-02-11 16:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Bryan, the wind force has been measured by specialists and it does not deviate from the wind that you find in Berlin or Thialf or comparable rinks.
Not convincing because we then have to come up with another explanation for the faster times. The altitude is not higher. The meteorogical air pressure isn’t lower, the air temperature isn’t higher, the skaters aren’t better. Have they put something special in the ice?

hilsen Lars Finsen / www.ortygia.no
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Uriania pages: http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Oscar Diary: http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
Alt om skÞyter:
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml
Marnix Koolhaas m.koolhaas@vpro.nl [Speed_skating]
2017-02-11 17:28:01 UTC
Permalink
?did they properly measure the rinksize?

________________________________
Van: ***@yahoogroups.com <***@yahoogroups.com> namens Lars Finsen ***@ortygia.no [Speed_skating] <***@yahoogroups.com>
Verzonden: zaterdag 11 februari 2017 17:10
Aan: ***@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Bryan, the wind force has been measured by specialists and it does not deviate from the wind that you find in Berlin or Thialf or comparable rinks.
Not convincing because we then have to come up with another explanation for the faster times. The altitude is not higher. The meteorogical air pressure isn't lower, the air temperature isn't higher, the skaters aren't better. Have they put something special in the ice?

hilsen Lars Finsen / www.ortygia.no
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Uriania pages: http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Oscar Diary: http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
Alt om skøyter:
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml



[Loading Image...]<http://vpro.nl/vooruitgang>


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'Carool van Kesteren' caroolvk@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
2017-02-12 08:05:59 UTC
Permalink
Seems so, the most inner lane is wider than usual, to get an advantage for the mass start. I expect all sizes are well within the ISU limits.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Carool van Kesteren

From: mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 6:28 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung



​did they properly measure the rinksize?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Van: ***@yahoogroups.com <***@yahoogroups.com> namens Lars Finsen ***@ortygia.no [Speed_skating] <***@yahoogroups.com>
Verzonden: zaterdag 11 februari 2017 17:10
Aan: ***@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Bryan, the wind force has been measured by specialists and it does not deviate from the wind that you find in Berlin or Thialf or comparable rinks.
Not convincing because we then have to come up with another explanation for the faster times. The altitude is not higher. The meteorogical air pressure isn’t lower, the air temperature isn’t higher, the skaters aren’t better. Have they put something special in the ice?

hilsen Lars Finsen / www.ortygia.no
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Uriania pages: http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Oscar Diary: http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
Alt om skÞyter:
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml







disclaimer
'Carool van Kesteren' caroolvk@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
2017-02-12 08:04:39 UTC
Permalink
Lars, I think the skaters are indeed better, most of them tuned their season to be in best shape for this event, thus blueprinting next season for the Olympics.

Who did not do that well this year?
Canadian ladies in general, except Weideman, Canadian Sprint men, I think they must come down from their holy Calgary mountain much earlier to train at sea level.
American ladies sprint except for Bergsma, who trains in the Netherlands. the others look at least overweighted and totally out of shape. Train at sea level!
Korean’s in general..... don’t send away your coach in the season before the olympics, while the skaters were doing good with new talents coming up last year.
Germany is coming up, but need some time to get there. Except for Claudia of course. She will always be there I think.
Dutch LD ladies.....I think next season we will only see specialists on the 5 K.
Dutch sprint ladies...no connection yet to the world top. mainly technical curve issues.
Norwegians are vulnerable with only a few top skaters, perhaps the games are too early for them.
Polish skaters: will be better next year
Russians....depend on the further actions from the ISU
Chinese skaters? No idea what they have been doing this year......
Japan: most dangerous competitor for the games next year.
New Zealand: medals on TP, MS and 5000K for Peter Michael.


Met vriendelijke groet,
Carool van Kesteren

From: mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 5:10 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Bryan, the wind force has been measured by specialists and it does not deviate from the wind that you find in Berlin or Thialf or comparable rinks.
Not convincing because we then have to come up with another explanation for the faster times. The altitude is not higher. The meteorogical air pressure isn’t lower, the air temperature isn’t higher, the skaters aren’t better. Have they put something special in the ice?

hilsen Lars Finsen / www.ortygia.no
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Uriania pages: http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Oscar Diary: http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
Alt om skÞyter:
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml
jflemonde@yahoo.com [Speed_skating]
2017-02-12 12:30:51 UTC
Permalink
Carool,
regarding the canadian men sprint team.
3 of the 5 participants in sprint distances in Gangneung train at sea level in either Quebec city or Montreal ( Dubreuil, B-Lacroix, St-Jean). but yes they will have to go back to the drawing boards this summer to get back to last year's level at least. (except for the Haitre :) )


for the ladies, the team may be small, but they all came back with at least 1 top 6 each except for Tutt. (and they could have won bronze in the TP if it had not been of that fall on the last stretch)

Also, the ice seems fast yes, but its not mindblowingly faster then Heerenveen. It seems like Kramer was in an astonishing shape so thats why he had amazing times. apart from that most athletes peaked for that event, which would explain why they had good results

what happened to Bowe and Kulizhnikov?

JF

Envoyé de mon iPad
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Lars, I think the skaters are indeed better, most of them tuned their season to be in best shape for this event, thus blueprinting next season for the Olympics.
Who did not do that well this year?
Canadian ladies in general, except Weideman, Canadian Sprint men, I think they must come down from their holy Calgary mountain much earlier to train at sea level.
American ladies sprint except for Bergsma, who trains in the Netherlands. the others look at least overweighted and totally out of shape. Train at sea level!
Korean’s in general..... don’t send away your coach in the season before the olympics, while the skaters were doing good with new talents coming up last year.
Germany is coming up, but need some time to get there. Except for Claudia of course. She will always be there I think.
Dutch LD ladies.....I think next season we will only see specialists on the 5 K.
Dutch sprint ladies...no connection yet to the world top. mainly technical curve issues.
Norwegians are vulnerable with only a few top skaters, perhaps the games are too early for them.
Polish skaters: will be better next year
Russians....depend on the further actions from the ISU
Chinese skaters? No idea what they have been doing this year......
Japan: most dangerous competitor for the games next year.
New Zealand: medals on TP, MS and 5000K for Peter Michael.
Met vriendelijke groet,
Carool van Kesteren
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Bryan, the wind force has been measured by specialists and it does not deviate from the wind that you find in Berlin or Thialf or comparable rinks.
Not convincing because we then have to come up with another explanation for the faster times. The altitude is not higher. The meteorogical air pressure isn’t lower, the air temperature isn’t higher, the skaters aren’t better. Have they put something special in the ice?
hilsen Lars Finsen / www.ortygia.no
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Uriania pages: http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Oscar Diary: http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml
'Carool van Kesteren' caroolvk@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
2017-02-13 08:28:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi JF
It is always good to have insights in the actual situation in a country, also I know there is a lack or money in Canada. I mentioned Weidenmann by mistake as an American, sorry for that!
She did well at the WSD. I have met Bart Schouten in the past and I know he is a top coach so I have no doubt he will get his team in good shape within a year.
What happened to Junio, we have not seen him since that start of the season? Overtrained?

Kuli is injured, and mentally not in great shape either
Bow suffers from a concussion, and is still recovering.



Met vriendelijke groet,
Carool van Kesteren

From: mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:30 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung



Carool,
regarding the canadian men sprint team.
3 of the 5 participants in sprint distances in Gangneung train at sea level in either Quebec city or Montreal ( Dubreuil, B-Lacroix, St-Jean). but yes they will have to go back to the drawing boards this summer to get back to last year's level at least. (except for the Haitre :) )


for the ladies, the team may be small, but they all came back with at least 1 top 6 each except for Tutt. (and they could have won bronze in the TP if it had not been of that fall on the last stretch)

Also, the ice seems fast yes, but its not mindblowingly faster then Heerenveen. It seems like Kramer was in an astonishing shape so thats why he had amazing times. apart from that most athletes peaked for that event, which would explain why they had good results

what happened to Bowe and Kulizhnikov?

JF


Envoyé de mon iPad

Le 12 févr. 2017 à 03:04, 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating] <***@yahoogroups.com> a écrit :


Lars, I think the skaters are indeed better, most of them tuned their season to be in best shape for this event, thus blueprinting next season for the Olympics.

Who did not do that well this year?
Canadian ladies in general, except Weideman, Canadian Sprint men, I think they must come down from their holy Calgary mountain much earlier to train at sea level.
American ladies sprint except for Bergsma, who trains in the Netherlands. the others look at least overweighted and totally out of shape. Train at sea level!
Korean’s in general..... don’t send away your coach in the season before the olympics, while the skaters were doing good with new talents coming up last year.
Germany is coming up, but need some time to get there. Except for Claudia of course. She will always be there I think.
Dutch LD ladies.....I think next season we will only see specialists on the 5 K.
Dutch sprint ladies...no connection yet to the world top. mainly technical curve issues.
Norwegians are vulnerable with only a few top skaters, perhaps the games are too early for them.
Polish skaters: will be better next year
Russians....depend on the further actions from the ISU
Chinese skaters? No idea what they have been doing this year......
Japan: most dangerous competitor for the games next year.
New Zealand: medals on TP, MS and 5000K for Peter Michael.


Met vriendelijke groet,
Carool van Kesteren

From: mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 5:10 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Bryan, the wind force has been measured by specialists and it does not deviate from the wind that you find in Berlin or Thialf or comparable rinks.
Not convincing because we then have to come up with another explanation for the faster times. The altitude is not higher. The meteorogical air pressure isn’t lower, the air temperature isn’t higher, the skaters aren’t better. Have they put something special in the ice?

hilsen Lars Finsen / www.ortygia.no
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Uriania pages: http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Oscar Diary: http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
Alt om skÞyter:
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml
jflemonde@yahoo.com [Speed_skating]
2017-02-13 12:25:36 UTC
Permalink
i dont know why Junio has been skating sub-par.
his results in the first 2 world cups were not good enough to make him skate the 3rd and 4th world cups. then he didnt qualify at the national champs in january.

JF

Envoyé de mon iPad
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Hi JF
It is always good to have insights in the actual situation in a country, also I know there is a lack or money in Canada. I mentioned Weidenmann by mistake as an American, sorry for that!
She did well at the WSD. I have met Bart Schouten in the past and I know he is a top coach so I have no doubt he will get his team in good shape within a year.
What happened to Junio, we have not seen him since that start of the season? Overtrained?
Kuli is injured, and mentally not in great shape either
Bow suffers from a concussion, and is still recovering.
Met vriendelijke groet,
Carool van Kesteren
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung
Carool,
regarding the canadian men sprint team.
3 of the 5 participants in sprint distances in Gangneung train at sea level in either Quebec city or Montreal ( Dubreuil, B-Lacroix, St-Jean). but yes they will have to go back to the drawing boards this summer to get back to last year's level at least. (except for the Haitre :) )
for the ladies, the team may be small, but they all came back with at least 1 top 6 each except for Tutt. (and they could have won bronze in the TP if it had not been of that fall on the last stretch)
Also, the ice seems fast yes, but its not mindblowingly faster then Heerenveen. It seems like Kramer was in an astonishing shape so thats why he had amazing times. apart from that most athletes peaked for that event, which would explain why they had good results
what happened to Bowe and Kulizhnikov?
JF
Envoyé de mon iPad
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Lars, I think the skaters are indeed better, most of them tuned their season to be in best shape for this event, thus blueprinting next season for the Olympics.
Who did not do that well this year?
Canadian ladies in general, except Weideman, Canadian Sprint men, I think they must come down from their holy Calgary mountain much earlier to train at sea level.
American ladies sprint except for Bergsma, who trains in the Netherlands. the others look at least overweighted and totally out of shape. Train at sea level!
Korean’s in general..... don’t send away your coach in the season before the olympics, while the skaters were doing good with new talents coming up last year.
Germany is coming up, but need some time to get there. Except for Claudia of course. She will always be there I think.
Dutch LD ladies.....I think next season we will only see specialists on the 5 K.
Dutch sprint ladies...no connection yet to the world top. mainly technical curve issues.
Norwegians are vulnerable with only a few top skaters, perhaps the games are too early for them.
Polish skaters: will be better next year
Russians....depend on the further actions from the ISU
Chinese skaters? No idea what they have been doing this year......
Japan: most dangerous competitor for the games next year.
New Zealand: medals on TP, MS and 5000K for Peter Michael.
Met vriendelijke groet,
Carool van Kesteren
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Bryan, the wind force has been measured by specialists and it does not deviate from the wind that you find in Berlin or Thialf or comparable rinks.
Not convincing because we then have to come up with another explanation for the faster times. The altitude is not higher. The meteorogical air pressure isn’t lower, the air temperature isn’t higher, the skaters aren’t better. Have they put something special in the ice?
hilsen Lars Finsen / www.ortygia.no
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Uriania pages: http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Oscar Diary: http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml
Lars Finsen lars.finsen@ortygia.no [Speed_skating]
2017-02-12 16:45:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@yahoo.com [Speed_skating]
Also, the ice seems fast yes, but its not mindblowingly faster then Heerenveen.
Well, Heerenveen is kind of the standard.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [Speed_skating]
It seems like Kramer was in an astonishing shape so thats why he had amazing times. apart from that most athletes peaked for that event, which would explain why they had good results.
They usually peak for other similar events as well.
Perhaps the -9 in the ice contributed. Normal speedskating lore says that -7 is ideal for long distances and -5 for sprint. But perhaps the freezing capacities of existing facilities haven’t been up to -9. Or at least without side-effects.
Anyway, barometric pressure has been rather high, so it’s kind of mind-blowing.

LEF / www.ortygia.no
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Uriania pages: http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Oscar Diary: http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
Alt om skÞyter:
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml
'Carool van Kesteren' caroolvk@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
2017-02-13 11:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Air pressure which is 79% of the resistance that a skater experiences went up from just above 1000 HPa to 1025 on the last day, was said on Dutch TV.
I noticed that the air humidity in the hall is extremely low, 15% during the 10.000m and up again the next day during the 1500.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Carool van Kesteren

From: mailto:***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 5:45 PM
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung
Post by ***@yahoo.com [Speed_skating]
Also, the ice seems fast yes, but its not mindblowingly faster then Heerenveen.
Well, Heerenveen is kind of the standard.
Post by ***@yahoo.com [Speed_skating]
It seems like Kramer was in an astonishing shape so thats why he had amazing times. apart from that most athletes peaked for that event, which would explain why they had good results.
They usually peak for other similar events as well.
Perhaps the -9 in the ice contributed. Normal speedskating lore says that -7 is ideal for long distances and -5 for sprint. But perhaps the freezing capacities of existing facilities haven’t been up to -9. Or at least without side-effects.
Anyway, barometric pressure has been rather high, so it’s kind of mind-blowing.

LEF / www.ortygia.no
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Uriania pages: http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Oscar Diary: http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
Alt om skÞyter:
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml

Lars Finsen lars.finsen@ortygia.no [Speed_skating]
2017-02-12 17:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by 'Carool van Kesteren' ***@hetnet.nl [Speed_skating]
Lars, I think the skaters are indeed better, most of them tuned their season to be in best shape for this event, thus blueprinting next season for the Olympics.
It’s curious though that they all seem to tune it so exceedingly well. They aren’t usually that unison. Except the Norwegians, of course, though even Pedersen who’s not at full health improved his lowland SB by near 4 seconds.

hilsen Lars Finsen / www.ortygia.no
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Uriania pages: http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Oscar Diary: http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
Alt om skÞyter:
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml
'Caroline van Staaveren' cvstaave@quicknet.nl [Speed_skating]
2017-02-11 21:41:57 UTC
Permalink
That’s an intriguing one MArnix


That also explain why several experienced skaters had problems with going
into the corners….
Post by Marnix Koolhaas ***@vpro.nl [Speed_skating]
Post by Marnix Koolhaas ***@vpro.nl [Speed_skating]
?did they properly measure the rinksize?
________________________________
Verzonden: zaterdag 11 februari 2017 17:10
Onderwerp: Re: [Skate] Wind blowing in Gangneung
Post by Marnix Koolhaas ***@vpro.nl [Speed_skating]
Bryan, the wind force has been measured by specialists and it does not
deviate from the wind that you find in Berlin or Thialf or comparable rinks.
Post by Marnix Koolhaas ***@vpro.nl [Speed_skating]
Not convincing because we then have to come up with another explanation
for the faster times. The altitude is not higher. The meteorogical air
pressure isn't lower, the air temperature isn't higher, the skaters aren't
better. Have they put something special in the ice?
Post by Marnix Koolhaas ***@vpro.nl [Speed_skating]
hilsen Lars Finsen / www.ortygia.no
<http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com>
http://forhundrearsidaidag.blogspot.com
Post by Marnix Koolhaas ***@vpro.nl [Speed_skating]
<http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com>
http://ordordordordordord.blogspot.com
Post by Marnix Koolhaas ***@vpro.nl [Speed_skating]
Uriania pages: <http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm>
http://www.ortygia.no/uriania/uriania-eng.htm
Post by Marnix Koolhaas ***@vpro.nl [Speed_skating]
Oscar Diary: <http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml>
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/Oscar/odfront.shtml
Post by Marnix Koolhaas ***@vpro.nl [Speed_skating]
<http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml>
http://www.ortygia.no/Skoyter/AOS/AOS2017.shtml
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